The Unending Turbonator / Tornado / Spiralmax / etc Debate

[aneet]

Thank you Slanter! I almost got suckered into the tornado....love your redefining "jury rigged repair" since 1997.......lol
Thanks to the others (you know who you are) that complimented Slanters take on the tornado and the likes of such gadgets.....
I'll be around the block looking in for more dependable advice(s)..

Regards, Aneet

[vip18971]

Wow, I decided to take a look around here again and low-and-behold, this therad is still going. Are people so desperate to save a few bucks that they're willing to throw logic and reaosning aside and try anything, or are people actually this ignorant about the workings of their automobile that they believe this?

Guys, the people who are telling you about how its increasing their power and whatnot? They're on someone's payroll, or on something very powerful ;-)

I'm not sure if I've said this before, but I'll say it now.

The claims they're making about 'swirling' are absolutely and 100% correct...when they talk about swirling inside of the combustion chamber...The air enters in through your intake filter, travels up your intake piping, goes through your throttle body (a round valve which swivels open depending on how hard you press the throttle), into your intake plenums where it is broken up into 4-6-or 8 different runners depending on how many cylinders your motor has, into the intake holes in your cylinder head(s), then out of a little tiny (maybe a couple of inches wide) gap caused by a valve in your cylinder head being pushed down and opening. This is when is actually enters the combustion chamber (same place as the cylinder itself). It is at THIS point that air swirling helps a uniform burn. This is accomplished because the valve which the air exits is offset and the cylinder, is..well..a cylinder. The air rolls cockeyed right into the cylinder and as the fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder with the swirling air, it helps it mix a little better. This is the fundamental design behind a 'Twisted Wedge Cylinder Head'.

I don't care if you get the air to dance an Irish jig while in that first part of intake piping. Look at all the pipes, runners, and valves it has to go through and then tell me...using REASONING, do you think it matters once it gets squeezed into the combustion chamber? Below is a picture of the valves (removed to show the runner which the air flows through) and a Twisted Wedge head. The larger valve is where the air travels into the cylinder from.

[carfanaticdude]

i went out and purchased one of these "turbonaters" to see the facts for my self and if they were any good, i would buy them for my friends... i have a 1999 suzuki grand vitara and it did on average worse then without having the turbonater... my dads friend knows a guy who works for this drag racing thing and he has a dyno... i put my car on there (paying a hefty fee of about $100.00) i put it on there stock no after market parts... i ran it for 10 miles with and without the turbonater. my suzuki got 22.7mpg going 55mph without it on and 21.1mpg going 55mph with the turbonater. i also checked the HP i had a max of 190.2HP without the turbonater. with the turbonater i had 190.3HP obviously there is no change between them the .1 difference isnt that great that could be a result of a bubble in the gas or somthing liek that (VERY INSIGNIFICANT) my studies say "NO" dont buy this. i recomend for easy HP boost is a K&N air filter thats somthing you know works!

P.S. i did a forum last year about the transitors that you put in your car that say they add HP and MPG they dont.. tests were the same and in most car companies that voids your warrenty.
have a good one!

[toy4crawlin]

Rom, has some great info that I agree with.

vip18971 referred me to this site

Slanter has some good points and well as Traqr

I was about to purchase a Turbunator or the Tornado since it seems to be the ORIGINAL

After reading different views of the unknown installers out there in which I have my doubts and pulling apart my intake and putting logic to work in my head on HOW ON Earth this is sopposed to work IN MY SETUP I say this is a JOKE !

I do not have proof that it does work in other cars but I see reason in what Slanter said about the buyer wanting it to work and thus thinking it helps. I also say if it does help it really depends on WHAT VEHICLE your installing it in !!.

Your more likely to gain from:
a K&N filter
proper air pressure in tires
Correct gas octane
turn off AC
softer smoother acceleration
Remove Roof Rack
than you are this Tubonator junk !


For instance my STOCK AIR box has such a small Almost closed Square 2"X 2" valve that allows air through, and if I disconnect the air box the engine dies.
If I replace the air box with a Big filter the Engine dies
There are many angles the Air intake tube takes and I call ******** on the Swiring action ( at least in my Intake system )
For those asking what vehicle, I have a 85 Toyota 22re 4cyl, 2.4 liter truck and a toyota V6 3.o liter .
Don't forget what ROM Said about valve plates and throttle body restrictions etc.

I did replace my 1985 4cyl. stock Exhaust with a Header which MADE HUGE RESULTS !
Best $220 delivered I ever spent !
And I'd have to say replacing your muffler will give you higher gains in HP maybe mpg than these gimmick Air swirlers- Tornado/Turbonator

You want to save gas !??
Then stop gunning the gas pedal from dead stops !
Keep your speed below 70 mph ! You waste up to .21 cents a gallon when you drive over 65 mph. Each 5 miles per hour you drive over 60 mph is like paying an additional $0.10 per gallon
If you drive 180 miles at 80-90 mph than you would at 70 mph you may save 20-25 minutes. big deal ! is it really worth it ??

Search on YAHOO for better gas mileage
http://www.ehow.com/how_6193_gas-mileage-with.html
Are your Fuel injectors dirty, I sent mine out and had them cleaned and calibrated for $110. had them back in 3 days !
Check air pressure, Use Aluminum Rims !
Replace Coolant

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...=tornado%20air

It's all about the research !

[Spyder95]

..........For instance my STOCK AIR box has such a small Almost closed Square 2"X 2" valve that allows air through, and if I disconnect the air box the engine dies.
If I replace the air box with a Big filter the Engine dies..........

Oh boy - you replaced the stock air box with a big filter and the engine died? Does your air box contain a MAF (mass air flow) sensor? If so, you need to leave it in place and get an adapter for the filter, or replace the MAF with some other means of telling the ECU how much air is entering the engine. You can do this with the MAFT-Pro, a MAP sensor and a temperature sensor (~$500). Replacing the MAF with a speed-density system allows air to flow with less restriction through the intake piping, therefore allowing the engine to produce a little more HP. The more air you flow through your intake, the bigger the improvement. This mod is really meant for turbocharged engines. Back on the subject of swirling the intake charge, it is true that swirling fluids move more easily through a pipe. This means the Turbonator claims are truthfully based in fluid dynamics, even if the device does not work in practice. If the intake pipe were made larger, and augmented with internal structures that caused the gases to maintain the swirling action, then I could see where there might be some slight performance improvement. The intake charge might flow more easily to the throttle body, where the swirling action would be stopped by the butterfly valve. Unfortunately, adding fins to the stream of air without increasing the size of the pipe results in the restriction of airflow more than the swirling action improves airflow. On the other hand, I do believe that swirling the intake charge (on both sides of the turbocharger if so equipped), all the way to the intake valves would increase performance. The only way to swirl the air the whole way is to use variable intake valves without the restrictive butterfly valve, as BMW is doing currently with the Valvetronic system (variable valve lift) in the 550i. I would be curious to see if the BMW engineers have experimented with (or even adopted!) a swirling intake charge. The concept might require separate intake piping for each cylinder in order maintain swirl integrity all the way to the intake valve.

[jeff baddeliyanage]

Hey,
I'm brand new to the forum and of course happy to be a part of it. I was reading your comment on this "Turbonator" thing. I've been thinking about buying it for my 1999 Camaro. Until I ran across this forum, I've seen other opinions that seems to differ from yours. However your comments tells me that you are very knowledable and well informed in the car business. So I'm very interested in what you have to say about this thing called Turbonator. Do you recommend something else that would do the job at a reasonable price?

Thanks Man,

Michael

I recommend a k&n intake

[silvia]

uneed2no, um... words fail me to describe the dumb crap that poors out of your mouth. Do you have any concept of boot psi? And that hooking up 3 turbos can blow pistons through engines? Further more, you have a serious fedish with the term "bhp". Do you know what it means? Now now, dont ask daddy, hes a liar. A resistor... or a "Performance chip" as they sell to you, DOES DO DAMAGE TO YOUR ENGINE!!!!!! It runs the engine with the choke on flooding it with gas and restricting the air. Try to run your lawn mower on choke. What happens? I'll tell you, it stalls. Your car will despritly want to stall, but has just enough air to where it wont.
I put a Tornado in my car just for shits and giggles. I work for a parts store call Royco Automotive and Marine Parts (and yes, we do sell your electric turbo, look in the marine section under blower). We do sell tornado and a whole lot of other fuel additives that are suppose to boost hp and econimy. This however is a lie. It goes against how an engine functions: more air and fuel the better the burn. To have econimy, you want just the opposite, less air and less fuel. The Tornado, RESTRICTS AIR FLOW. Thus LIKE SLANTER SAID, the engine compensates and puts less gas in the engine. I got 2-3mpg better, and probabily a 10%hp loss.
As for your civic. If it is as you claim, you have wasted alot of $$ tuning a non-race car and also destroyed a good econimy car. Buy a Nissan Silvia and with the SR20DET engine in it. Oh, and incase you didnt know, thats the one thats in the Skyline. It IS ment for high boost, and racing. IF it has 430hp, what is your torque? 430hp at what rpm????? When does yor v-tec kick in?? Its ok if you dont answer, its not your fault you dont know.

[silvia]

First off, Slanter has been spot on 100% of the way. He obays the laws of aerodynamics. Such is a law the tornado must obay. Someone said that it produces a minute psi boost i think? well, sorry, not possable. Air is not being forced into the engine, the engine is pulling it in. So, being it can only pull in 0psi (or 1psi, have not taken science for a while), it is not possable that it would increase the psi, its just not, think about it. It may however, increase vacume as you are restricting air flow. But the engine would adjust and than return to normal psi. Secondly, automakers are not using these or anything similar. Airflow completly changes as it enters/exits the air intake manifold. So in theory, (if of course by swirling the air you could force more air into the engine than the engine is pulling in), having a seperate manifold and filter per cylinder would make it work. But, the engine can never force more air into itself. Try putting one in your mouth. Can you breathe more air in or not?Compression can not be done by the engine alone. Thats why there are things like super and turbochargers. Spike TV's Powerblock tried various power and econimy boosters ----->ON A DYNO! <----- This included the Tornado. Several passes were done. None of the products held water. And for the same reason everone has been saying, you cant add hp and econimy. Air + Fuel = Combustion. This is basic, so lets assume that the grade of gas is constant. The stronger combustion there is, the greater the hp (again, VERY BASIC, there are trillions of other factors that come into play here). Economy runs on the opposite principal, Less Air + Less Fuel = Less Combustion. If you want the best of both worlds, put synthedic oil in all places that require lubrication. This includes wheel bearings. The engine turns easer using less gass, and the car moves easer resulting in an increase in PERFORMANCE. not hp. As for the friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend whith the mystery year truck, i have changed my driving habbits and had a 30% differance in economy. Its free, and always works, everytime. Slanter, as usual, is right on the money with this one. Good Job. You obviously know your stuff.

[Spyder95]

I can't beleive people actually buy that stuff!

If you think that helps throw a little Z max in your fuel and Slick 50 in your oil.

This thread was good for a chuckle though.

Check out AvBlend. It is commonly used by piston engine aircraft owners. It contains the same thing as Z-Max, which is still advertised by the way, and is endorsed by Caroll Shelby. How 'bout the never ending Z-Max thread? I'd like to see some real world tests of Z-Max in car engines.

[Easy E]

to the top

[dodgeballer]

I think that the Tornado is just fluff. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

[Ivan Hackman]

just a comment on spiralmax & similar "performance boosters". I am an ex motorcycle racer ,engine tuner,mechanic,and avowed cynic living in the UK. The whole point of the type of insert claimed to "TURBOCHARGE" your motor is that it does not introduce more charge into your engine.It creates a swirl in the inlet charge which greatly improves mixing and combustion- in the same way that exaggerating the swirl angle of an inlet port when "gas-flowing"a cylinder head does.This is more effective in engines which have inefficiently designed inlet ports as there is more improvement to be gained.What it does is make your engine more efficient- and you either obtain better economy or improved performance depending on how you drive! I fitted a Spiralmax in my 2.5 litre Volvo and after about 2 years evaluation I can assure you that a fuel economy improvement of ten to fifteen percent has been gained, with improved low rev running ( much smoother in low speed traffic, -crisper response also). I have no interest in the argument other than to report the facts after 20,000 miles usage.I hate to give credit for something I did not think of--but IT WORKS, maybe not as spectacularly as some claims would have you believe, but well enough to please me and save some fuel costs.

[dodgeballer]

What it does is make your engine more efficient- and you either obtain better economy or improved performance depending on how you drive!

Thats exactly what the case is. There are no quick, magical wonder products on the market for fuel economy, just slight enhancers and long term savings devices.

[dnaproracing]

stupid me went out and bought a 92 lumina z34 "mechanics nightmare", due to the fact there is absolutely no room at all to work under the hood. after dumping another 3 grand repairing/replacing a ton of parts, I wanna know how to gain more horse power without the hype of whirl-wind devices. I bought the tornado and tested it for a few months and found no change at all. Sooooo, I ripped out the stock "box air filter" and tossed in a k&n cone "sounds fantastic" but really didnt gain much HP. in the process, the IAT sensor has no place to plug into. it used to plug into the top part of the stock box filter. now it just hangs, plugged to nothing. Im seeing those IAT devices popping up everywhere, do they really work? tricking the ECU? do you REALLY gain any more power? I know they are fairly cheap and wouldnt take much to test it, but i want to hear from those that have actually used one and what difference did it make. I dont want to spend hundreds on a chip-set when they claim that a piggy-back can do the same thing for close to nothing. anyone out there wanna give me some info? I would greatly appreciate it.
Btw, dont buy a lumina! unless you like to either spend a fortune, or do alot of work youself, this car has something wrong with it ALL THE TIME! "sigh" but i love it.
sorry if some of my terminology is off, im no mechanic. but im learning. oh, and i drive hard. very hard. its like a disease, i simply cannot do the speed limit.

Gary

[John Hammond]

hi

My Land Rover Discovery 300tdi, for those not familiar, is a 9 year old 2.5 turbo diesel four by four. Having seen the blurb plus an article in the Discovery owners mag, which was positive, I bought a pair of these. Why a pair? Cos the manufacturers and the Owners' club geezer, said you need one before the turbo and one before the inlet manifold. With it came a "lifetime" air filter as a free gift. To see the cumulative difference, I put the air filter in first then the two Hiclones, one by one.

The air filter gave a big power boost straightaway, as you would expect then each Hiclone seemed to give a tiny bit more. I principally bought these to help fuel consumption. I then set off to the south of France to where we go all the time. I run on the same roads at the same speeds with the same urgency, or lack of it, on each trip, and I do about 6 trips per year.

The fuel consumption over about 3000 miles was WORSE. The performance at low revs seemed a little better.

So I took the Hiclones out, one by one, reversing the process. It made no difference except the fuel consumption climbed back to what it should be or nearly. Then last of all I took out the air filter and replaced it with a standard cheapo one. The performance went back to where it should have been before the "lifetime" filter was fitted.

Question, how can one of theses things fitted between the air filter and the turbo and intercooler make a scrap of difference? The air is swirled and then any swirl must surely disappear by getting "swirled" again in the turbo and the intercooler must knacker any swirl. Taking out or putting in the one between the filter and the turbo made no difference at all. Then what about the less than perfect fit in the section before the inlet manifold? surely it just disturbs or limits the airflow?

Also, if you look at the graph which the company supplies with the packaging, it shows performance WORSENING at anything over 70 mph, so forget saving fuel on the motorway. I came to the conclusion that the one in front of the manifold might make a tiny difference to low rev performance but the most important thing is to have a clean and free flowing air filter, like a K & N.

Their "lifetime" air filter, "just tap it if it gets dusty", is a load of rubbish. You can tap it till the cows come home, it will not unclog. The K & N is a bit pricey but it is a fit-and-more-or-less-forget way of improving airflow. I would also advocate ensuring that the intercooler hoses are silicone ones, that the intercooler is powerful enough and getting enough airflow over it, that the injectors are clean, that the exhaust is freeflowing and that tappet settings are correct.

All my life I have worked on cars of all sorts, I ran the Wessex Kit Car Club for 15 years and have seen many weird devices which purport to improve either performance or fuel consumption or both. At the end of the day, engines go suck, squeeze, bang, blow. To improve both performance and fuel economy, you need to improve airflow ("suck" and "blow") and burn ("squeeze" and "bang"). To improve performance but NOT economy, you need to increase the amount of fuel and air which goes through the engine as well as the above.

To make the situation WORSE all you need to do is to alter the crucial settings or impede either airflow or burn. Sticking things in either the intake flow or the exhaust flow impedes flow and reduces performance, as does poor timing of either spark or valves, and this includes tappet gap.

I feel fitting Hiclones probably comes into the category of "sticking things in the intake" and, as with things like advancing or retarding either the spark or the valve timing, possibly at a certain point in the rev range there may be a tiny advantage but this is probably outweighed by the disadvantage in the rest of the rev range. I just know that, after about 12000 miles of mixed driving, they are now decorating my workbench and the filter is in the bin. And yes I do a brim-to-brim mileage check on every fill. Before Hiclone, on a run to Mazamet in the Tarn from Le Havre I would get about 31 to the gallon. Running around down there, and it is in the Black Mountains, trying to keep to 2000 revs I would get about 26-28. With Hiclone the best I could get was 28. So it was a no-brainer.

[austinkli]

so throughout this whole thread, I have to agree with slanter on everything he has said. A few of you have asked about putting more than 1 turbonator in to see if that works better. So for the sake of science, I went out a blew $100 on 3 turbonators. I stuffed them into a 92 civic, and guess what... it worked 3 times as well as having 1. But since the first 1 doesn't work at all, that doesn't make much of an increase. About 0. Actually, the 1st did not have any affect, but with 3, there was just too much blocking the intake and I actually got less air flow. Like it has been said so many times, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If you could really increase your horsepower by 10% for $50 or less, don't you think this would be one of the most popular devices out there. That being said, I have a 92 civic. So far I have put a new intake on it and smaller rims. Does anyone else have any suggestions for a somewhat inexpensive yet efficient boost in power. I'm not looking for a race car, i'd just like more than 107 hp.

[Sierra67]

I just bought a 2008 Elantra SE. Nice car, but too slow for me since I am coming off of a 3.5L V6 232 Hp SUV. I would like to kick it up a notch with HP, Torque and MPG. If I install 2 Turbonators, a Performance Chip and a K&N intake would I help the situation, make it worse or Blow up the Car? I am reading a lot of mixed reviews on these additions (Turbonator, Performence Chip and K&N filter). Should I just head over to a performance shop and tell them to to kick her up a notch (With about $500.00 to $1,000.00 to spend)?

[jb07secamry]

I just put my turbonator in my 07 camry se last week and my excelleration response is ten times better than before with just my K&N typhoon.
It has also improved my gas mileage about 30 miles a tank. Not sure about hp I haven't been to a dyno equipped shop! I sure am curious about the increase in hp though.

[zacknolden]

I have seen adds on TV about products such as the "turbonator" (http://www.turbonator.com/) and other similar products, does anyone know if they really work (even half as much as they are advertised), or is a complete waste of money?

Regards,
Cogito

i would not get it. it basically looks like an air filter. i would shy away from anything that makes claims like "anyone can do it!" "five minutes and a screwdriver is all it takes!" if youre not a mechanic, do not believe any ad that tells you that. 1) it voids your warranty. 2) you could seriously damage your engine.

if you still really want it, go to your mechanic. "too good to be true" usually is. if you want to add a 35$ part, remember, you are risking your enitre car! ::!!ca-ching!!::
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Latest Acura RSX Car Bra

[ozzyovergod]

Never Tried the Turbonator, But I tried an Electric supercharger, and well. like most people say. it does block air flow. for the first 2000 rpms its fine, but when idling at around 999, thats only 1001 rpms to work for and the rest of the rpms, are well, screwed, dont waste money on it. it sucks donkey @$$ Dont skimp on parts. or you'll skimp on power.

[blueskip]

I've been using the "tornado" for four years now. I'm averaging 31mpg at 70mph in a 99' Ford Contour. For those of you not familiar with the Contour, from the factory it only gets 22 to 24 mpg at 55mph. If I drive like I have some sense it gets more like 35mpg. This puts the car at roughly a 33% increase in fuel efficiency.

THAT SAID this is not ALL from the tornado. I put on ground effects and dual exhaust that increased the mpg 5-7mpg by reducing drag and breathing a little better with the tornado contributing another 3 or so. Due to rising fuel costs I'm looking to reduce drag further by removing anything causing drag such as the rear fin on the trunk. I also looking into ways to drop about 500+ pounds off the weight of the vehicle. (carbon fiber hood and trunk, lighter rims and high mileage tires, go back to the doughnut instead of the full size spare, get rid of the sound dampening (maybe), get rid of the carpet and trim in the trunk, etc)

Acetone DOES work and bumps the mileage up 1-2 mpg more but I found it to be too much of a pain to use it.

I put in a K&N air filter in conjunction with the tornado and as a result actually lost about 1-2 mpg from an average of 32-33mpg at 70mph. But I gained a noticeable increase in hp with it. So I kept it for now. I'm fairly certain I could get this car to or over 40mpg using off the shelf products if I try and I probably will soon.

I also switched to synthetic fluids when I put the ground effects and dual exhaust on. So the fluids, exhaust and lower drag all added up to 5-7mpg.

You can call me a liar on any of this all day but I have the gas receipts to prove it. I watch my gas like a hawk. I have to, I drive 76 miles one way to work. I drove 92 miles one way for 3 of those 4 years.

Another thing I would do if I could find a cheap camera kit is I would remove the side mirrors (drag) and use cameras instead. If done right by covering the holes it wouldn't even be noticeable. Too bad no one makes windshield wiper covers to eliminate the drag when not in use.

[zacknolden]

Oh.. Gustavo Romero. This scientific testing should really be done in the benefit and doubts of the opposing sides. Naphthalene? It perfectly suits closets
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My Auto-in-Demand Blog

[fraw]

Yea. He's right. This is a never ending debate. Each other would defend their preference. Everyone should be reminded that there's no correct answer in this.
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My fresh installs: Overdrive & Autopartswarehouse.com

[buellguy]

I've used a tornado to good effect i.e.1.) 95 Cabriolet with Paxton supercharger with flat spot off idle that resolved nicely with Tornado install. 2.) 98 Buell S1 with markedly smoother low RPM response. I've assumed that performance improvements were the result of better fuel atomization and cleaner burn as opposed to increased air intake velocity/volume.

[gabe74gt]

How does it with gas fuel?