The Unending Turbonator / Tornado / Spiralmax / etc Debate

[Slanter]

Slanter...

When this thread started you were the most educated and skeptical of these products...

Did anyone way your opinion or have you found at least 1 of them to work (even a bit?)

To persuade me that one of these things works, I'd like to see a good dyno run of someone using this and picking up the claimed horsepower gains. I'd also listen if someone tested it out at the dragstrip and found a statistically significant improvement in performance. The more precise the measurements, the more I'm willing to listen. Since this thread started, I've found two people who have dyno tested this thing and had it fail miserably. Nobody so far has posted either a dyno test where it improved performance (I'm not counting uneed2know - if he were real, he would have posted the information I'd asked for and completely blown my claims out of the water) or dragstrip runs measured with precision timing equipment.

G-techs and other accelerometers are enough to make me listen, but I don't completely trust them, particularly if there's only two or three runs with it installed. I've done experiments where one or two data points were outside the range expected. Usually if it's just a measurement or two, the explanation is just as likely to be experimental error as any real results. Max, that's why I have been asking if you could try to back this up, preferably with something more precise. If I'm reading your post right, it sounds as if you've just made two runs where you've timed this with a G-tech, and neither of them lasted more than a few seconds.

And I have not seen anyone who could demonstrate that the "science" behind their claims was anything but nonsense, misused terminology, and hype.

[maxc]

I haven't baught one of these things but I have alot of friends who are mechanics and most of them say it might restrict airflow but would produce a better air/fuel mixture, which would give you more power due to a more efficient burn, IF the 'vortex' makes it past the throttle.
Personally I dont think it would do a whole heck of a lot, but I'd be willing to spend the money just to shut you people up. BUT it wouldn't help, the non-beleavers would say I was full of crap if it worked, and the beleavers would say "thats just your car" if it didn't.

And a footnote to the jerkoffs who said things like "85mpg increase ! My car would get like 106 MPG!" You really need to work on your reading and interpretation skills. It says "85mpg per tank increase" so obviously the guy messed up when he was typing and he meant to say 85 mile/tank increase.


Someone call MythBusters and we'll get this problem sorted out right away!

NO "MythBusters" "corporate testing"!

[FordXplod93]

CNN ran a test on a few "fuel-saving" devices, including the Tornado. Here are the results:

Next up was the Tornado, a device that turns air inside a car's air intake valve into a mini-tornado. The manufacturer -- Tornado Air Management Systems -- said it makes engines burn fuel more efficiently.

In the test, the Tornado reduced a Lincoln Navigator's fuel mileage by just under a mile per gallon, from 18.4 mpg without the device to 17.5 mpg with it installed.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science...ion/index.html

For those interested in the full article.

~FordX

[jromeos]

CNN ran a test on a few "fuel-saving" devices, including the Tornado. Here are the results:




http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science...ion/index.html

For those interested in the full article.

~FordX

Ill call this thread closed, if CNN says its a scam, thats good enough for me.

[a'z accord]

are you for real? really u think that shoving an obstruction in your intake will INCREASE hp? lets think about this. when you want more horsepower you can get an aftermarket intake. this will replace your original intake with a BIGGER one so that there could be more air flow to the engine rite? well now how is blocking the air going in to the engine going to help the gas milage? do yourself a favor and check out this site.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science...ion/index.html

Now think about this for a second. Lets say this product really works. Then would the automakers all over the world spend millions of trying to devolop new technology to save gas. According to the turbonator representitive (who I called off of the phone # on their website) you can add up to 3 of these turbonators in certain cars & each of these are supposed to produce from 10% to 22% higher gas milage. So letsestimate for Chevy Tahoe for example. It gets abbout 16 mpg (stock) and we added three turbonators. This should give an end result of atleast 21 mpg and upto 29 mpg. Now thats almost hybrid numbers. Then why would they spend money on creating hybrid cars when they could do this for so much cheaper?

ITS ALL A SCAM AND HAS LAW SUITS PENDING ON MANY PROUDUCTS
tell me what you think about all of this

[Slanter]

Wow... the Turbonator representative actually claimed that? I can see why they wouldn't say such a thing on their website, as that is way too absurd a claim to have put up where it would be easy to find and ridicule.

Thanks for the CNN link, everyone.

At this point, I'm tempted to lobby the FTC to force a test of these things. They've recently nailed quite a few snake oil companies and, while unfortunately not putting them out of business, forced them to drop all claims about their products making engines last longer.

[Vetteran]

I can't speak for Turboator or Tornado, but the Vortec Cyclone I bought has produced results for me. I'm getting an extra 30-40 miles per tank, and although I haven't tested it on a dyno, there definitely seems to be a horsepower boost. By the way, I asked their rep about using multiple units, and he said that their tests showed no additional results, and that claims by the other companies that putting 2 or 3 in will double or triple your results are marketing ploys. He also said that car companies are using this technology, but are building swirling fins into the intake manifold rather than putting a device in the air hose.

[Slanter]

I can't speak for Turboator or Tornado, but the Vortec Cyclone I bought has produced results for me. I'm getting an extra 30-40 miles per tank, and although I haven't tested it on a dyno, there definitely seems to be a horsepower boost. By the way, I asked their rep about using multiple units, and he said that their tests showed no additional results, and that claims by the other companies that putting 2 or 3 in will double or triple your results are marketing ploys. He also said that car companies are using this technology, but are building swirling fins into the intake manifold rather than putting a device in the air hose.

Hello, Vetteran, and welcome to the debate. Do you mind me asking you a couple questions so I can get a better idea of how much improvement you've gotten?

First, have you kept track of how much gasoline you added each time you filled it up? If so, what was your miles per gallon before and after?

Second, how many times have you measured your mileage before and after installing this? How consistant are your measurements?

Third, I know dyno tuning is expensive - have you tried bringing it to a dragstrip for a test and tune session and seeing if it produces any results there?

[03'Pala]

I've been reading everyone's childish insults and debates. Why does EVERY frickin thread on the entire God-forsaken internet always have to have some petty insult and then someone getting all fired up about it and using the **** words? You honestly HAVE to get lives. These threads are for trading ideas and advice on GENUINE topics. Jerry Springer may have a thread if you want to truly show the capacity of your childish minds.

But I do think the Turbonator is a too-good-to-be-true contraption. It would be a much bigger item and have much more publicity if it performed like it and some others on this thread claim. But again, I'll admit, I have not used one, I'm just sharing my first impressions.

[Vetteran]

I have kept a log of mileage for some time (sample size 20+). Before, I used to get about 290 miles per full tank, now about 340. In terms of mileage, although there is some variance depending on weather, how many highway miles, etc, I am averaging 1-2 MPG better than I did before, about what Vortec Cyclone claimed it would provide. I am in between vettes right now, using the device in my family car (Pontiac Bonneville), so I am unlikely to be spotted at the track anytime soon

[VR4Racer]

Hi. I was looking for ways to tune up my 3000gt and i came across the turbonator, it claimed to give up to 30 hp and better fuel economy, with just a few non moving blades.
I realized that this is BS it is not possible for you to have more hp and more fuel economy with a performance part. The air intake allows the engine to get more air thus giving it more hp, the turbonator slows that air down. This takes hp away from the engine.
If you could have more horse power with better fuel economy than every car would have this part. If it is so revolutionary then why isn't it advertised more, shouldn't something this great be shared with the whole poopulation so it would get sold better. This thing has been out in the market for over a year, and most people still haven't heard of this thing.
Bottom line if you could have more hp and more fuel economy than a 500 hp car would be able to get 30 miles per gallon.

[paigeotheworld]

My friend reports on his small 199? Nissan Truck:

"I went from getting 300 miles per tank of gas (16 gallons) to almost 400."

(I'll report back about how well the thing does on my '02 Subaru Forester and whether or not I sent it back for a refund :-)

-p

(Oh, to the people who believe that "if these things worked the car makers would have already installed them on vehicles rather than selling hybrids"...do remember that they are out to make money, not save money for the consumers. They are the same people who install governors on all cars so that the don't get the top gas mileage they have the potential to get. And, wouldn't they rather sell us a new $15k car than a $15 upgrade to our old ones? :-)

[FordXplod93]

(Oh, to the people who believe that "if these things worked the car makers would have already installed them on vehicles rather than selling hybrids"...do remember that they are out to make money, not save money for the consumers. They are the same people who install governors on all cars so that the don't get the top gas mileage they have the potential to get. And, wouldn't they rather sell us a new $15k car than a $15 upgrade to our old ones? :-)

Actually, while the OEM are in the business of selling cars, price is one of the main selling points to consumers, so it's in their best interest to maintain a solid line between profit and consumer value. And governors have very little to do with getting the "best" gas mileage. Rather, they are mainly there to ensure safe vehicle operation and prevent stupid people from wearing the components out abnormally.

~FordX

[Slanter]

My friend reports on his small 199? Nissan Truck:

"I went from getting 300 miles per tank of gas (16 gallons) to almost 400."

(I'll report back about how well the thing does on my '02 Subaru Forester and whether or not I sent it back for a refund :-)

-p

(Oh, to the people who believe that "if these things worked the car makers would have already installed them on vehicles rather than selling hybrids"...do remember that they are out to make money, not save money for the consumers. They are the same people who install governors on all cars so that the don't get the top gas mileage they have the potential to get. And, wouldn't they rather sell us a new $15k car than a $15 upgrade to our old ones? :-)

Well, let's follow that "they are out to make money" line. Compare a Honda Civic Hybrid to a Civic EX sedan, the top of the line non-hybrid Civic. The EX has an MSRP of $19,620 and gets 30 city mpg, 40 highway. The hybrid has an MSRP of $22,150 and gets 49 city mpg and 51 on the highway. So customers are paying $2,530 extra for 43% more mileage.

Now, if that Nissan really gets 33% more mileage, that's close to a hybrid gain in gas mileage - so in theory, automakers could charge nearly the same hybrid markup for a $15 part, because that's clearly what customers are willing to pay for such mileage gains. If the auto makers are out to make money, how could they ignore such a thing?

So, your friend claims that pickup truck has gone from 300 to 400 miles on a tank of gas. While the Turbonator actually working would be one explanation, I can think of three others.

1. The driver has been filling up later, either due to changed filling up habits or a more optimistic reading of the gas gauge. Remember, a gas gauge is not a precision instrument.

2. The driver's driving or environment has changed - more highway driving, for instance, or the seasonal change from summer to winter formulas for gasoline.

3. The driver is normally a pedal-to-the metal driver, and the Turbonator has plugged the intake so he can't actually use full throttle. So it is not actually working - it's not boosting engine efficiency, or horsepower, both of which its makers claim it should - but instead it is acting like a throttle stop.

I challenge you to prove all of these alternative explanations false.

I haven't seen any one of the people backing this device who have ever put one of these things through a test that rules out all three of these alternate explanations. And every time I have seen someone construct a test carefully enough to rule them out - it's failed. Every time.

[VR4Racer]

its just a ******** product

[maxc]

I used a Snap-on scanner and checked the mass air flow at full throttle. 156 grams per second with the tornado, 152 without the tornado. Back to back runs. More air with it. Why?

[Slanter]

I used a Snap-on scanner and checked the mass air flow at full throttle. 156 grams per second with the tornado, 152 without the tornado. Back to back runs. More air with it. Why?

You might want to make a couple more runs to make sure that's repeatable, but I'd say it is more likely that the Tornado screws up the MAF than that you actually get more airflow.

Was that a hot-wire MAF? That uses a hot wire and measures how much current flows through the wire when the wire is held at a certain temperature, so the greater the speed of the air flowing past the wire, the higher the reading. Only the wire can't tell if the air is flowing past it into the intake, or turning around in circles - it cools the wire the same, even if the extra speed isn't pointed into the engine. Here's a little test you can do: with the engine not running but the computer on, check the MAF reading, then remove the plumbing in front of the MAF and blow into it with a fan. Chances are the MAF will read that air is flowing into the engine even though it can't possibly be flowing in under those circumstances.

Vane air flow meters could probably have their readings thrown off by having the direction of the air flow change in such a way that it pushes the flap open differently, and I don't even want to think about what this would do to a Karmann vortex meter.

I'd say the test would be more accurate if the Tornado were downstream of the MAF (you'll notice their directions are usually to install it upstream of it), or if you used a differential pressure transducer (or a U-tube manometer - those are pretty easy to make at home with some clear plastic tubing and a yardstick) to measure the pressure drop with and without this.

That does add an interesting other possible effect to the Tornado, though - it may sometimes have an effect by altering the MAF reading to change the mixture. Still not the effect they claim.

[maxc]

[QUOTE=Slanter]You might want to make a couple more runs to make sure that's I'd say the test would be more accurate if the Tornado were downstream of the MAF.

Hot wire.

The tornado is downstream of the MAF.

I'll check and see if it's repeatable.

Note I install a smaller unit (75mm) was 85mm.

Average 5hp increase.@ 50Fout side temp

[JesseG]

Hi all:

Listen, just wanted to give my two cents worth about this whole "turbonator" discussion. (And you will notice that I neither have poor grammar, nor do I apologize in advance for it...)

Look, really, it boils down to this: if it were THAT easy, wouldn't everyone shell out the $70.00 and just be done with it.

I mean, especially us performance nuts! If we could spend less than 100 clams and get 20-30 horsepower out of our cars, hell -- we'd be knocking down their doors!

I own a 1995 Nissan 300ZX -- less than 55,000 miles. Factory rated bHP at the flywheel around 222-225. This car moves. 0-60 in just under 7 sec. Top speed -- 148 mph.

The twin turbos are even better. Legendary performance. C&D's Car of the Year in the performance class for 6 straight years. Performed like Lotus Esprit Turbos for less than $40,000 -- NEW!!!!!!

But the point I want to make is this: There is an ACTUAL "Stage Chart" that tells you step by step how to force bHP into this particular car. It was essentially designed to be really fast off the showroom floor, and crazy fast (like a Murcielago or f40) with a little time and dough.

AND NOT ONE OF THE STAGES INVOLVES INTRODUCING A "VORTEX" AIR-SPIRALLING MECHANISM INTO THE INTAKE!!!!

You start with a low-flow intake.
You go on to a hi-perf cat-back exhaust.

And so on...

All in all, I can make a 300ZX T.T. have more than 450 bHP for less than $4000.00.

But none of the stages costs less than $250.00 -- and only two of the first six stages in the process will yield a bHP gain of more than 30. (which is the amount that turbonator enthusiasts claim their product will yield.)

Those stages and their prices?

Stage 3: Upgraded ECU (chip) and boost jets -- bHP increase of about 50.

(Around $1000.00)

Stage 6: Bigger injectors and bigger turbocharger -- bHP increase of about 80.


Sorry, turbonator fans. Just don't think I could actually add 30 bHP for only 70 bucks...

I agree with you. I have a 96 Dodge Ram 5.9L . Performance wise I have mopar performance parts headers and 3" exhaust kit a 760 cfm throttle body, a knn cold air induction system an msd 6a ignition system, a jet performance stage 2, a transgo shift kit and 24 lb hr fuel injectors. After consistent dyno tests I have only 250 rwhp. That's weak for all the money that I have spent on these darn parts. I should have just bought the supercharger right off. There is no way a turbonator can give 30hp right off the line. That's BS. Really who does this guy think he is. Shows what type of performance guy he is. Ha ha splicing a resistor into a sensor gives about as much as my headers, computer and cold air intake did at the dyno for my 8 cyl. 5.9L. Maybe I could have saved myself $1300 and just bought the turbonator to get the same amount of power at the rear wheels huh. LOL.

[06Rubicon]

Like many of you, I always have at least one eye open for an inexpensive performance mod and was immediately drawn into reading the threads on the Turbonator/Tornado/Spiralmax products. After reading through the majority of threads posted on this debate, and searching product information from other sources, I too wanted to comment.

I tend to agree with Slanter's general overview of these products, and apparently, so does Consumer Reports and the EPA. They don't work.

Consumer Reports link: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...chTerm=tornado

As for you dyno enthusiasts, it should be noted that while dyno testing is an excellent tool to determine baseline increases/decreases for most any engine modification, and can "simulate" forces such as aerodynamic drag, dyno's cannot duplicate "real world" testing because the testing is performed in a controlled environment. When you throw Mother Nature, local traffic conditions, or any number of other "real world" factors into the equation, these products don't live up to their claims.

As Slanter stated early on in this debate, invest the $70 into a K&N air filter (or equivalent filter) and replace conventional lubricants with synthetic ones for consistent, noticeable gains in fuel economy and performance, not to mention increased longevity of powertrain components (Bonus! ).

[y_salar]

hi i just wanted to ask you if a turbonator would work on an audi a4 2002 1.8t FWD and how many i could install on it and if it would boost the hp any higher thanks alot please email me soon

thanks bye

[06Rubicon]

y_salar,
You have got to be kidding? Look, forget what everyone is saying and look at a reliable source versus personal opinions; Consumer Reports. Here's the link:http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...chTerm=tornado

[silveradozoom44]

i got the tornado from kragen fo 70$. It was easy to install for the most part. however inserting the part into the tube was confusing, the instructions did not tell how far in to put it. it just said "snug" so thats what i did. I took it out and tested it. it could hear a faint whistle like sound from the engine. it sounder like a cold air intake or something so thats good. cant really tell about hp gains. i felt a bit more "get at 'ems" but that could easily be from the fact that it was cold outside or just a small fluctuation of horsepower.(everyone has gotten in their car and it seemed a little faster than normal for no apparent reason)

anyway i think i will take it in and out a few times to see if their is a difference. until then, 70 bucks could go towards an intake or exaust, something that is proven results of gains.

silveradozoom44

[CKY SKY]

hey this is my fisrt time on here. i have a 94 mercury sable 3.8L and i really want to make it faster but i dont have alot of money does anyone have and ideas how?
i was intrested in buying a turbonater, so is it really just a wast of money or does it really work?



thanx

[FordXplod93]

hey this is my fisrt time on here. i have a 94 mercury sable 3.8L and i really want to make it faster but i dont have alot of money does anyone have and ideas how?
i was intrested in buying a turbonater, so is it really just a wast of money or does it really work?



thanx

That's the entire point of this 6+ page thread. My suggestion is to read through the thread and decide for yourself.

~FordX