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  1. #1
    Big JynX Registered Member
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    install questionz...

    ok...
    i just got a pair of pioneer 6x9'z from a buddy for literally $10...(he wrecked his car)
    their "200 watts Maximum Power"...well thatz wut it sayz on the magnet sticker...
    plus the magnet isn't that big...AT ALL...the magnet on my factory's iz bigger, but i don't know if that matter.
    but my question iz...
    after i get an adapter for them...
    how do i hook-em up to an amp??
    AND...
    i finally wanna use those tweeters...how do i install them onto a 4x6 dash speaker?

    PLEASE...Help...Me!!!!
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  2. #2
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    make a plate for the tweeters. are you asking how do you hook up the amp? as in run the power and ground remote wires?

  3. #3
    I'm in your head Registered Member CVStroker's Avatar
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    If you make an adapter for the speakers, hook them up to a 9 volt battery, for just a sec, don't hold it there. When you touch the leads to the terminals, if the cone pops out, then the terminal that was hooked to the positive terminal of the battery is the positive one. Just find out which sides are positive, and hook them to the positive of the amp, so your speakers are in phase.
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  4. #4
    Resident Cynic Registered Member FordXplod93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVStroker
    If you make an adapter for the speakers, hook them up to a 9 volt battery, for just a sec, don't hold it there. When you touch the leads to the terminals, if the cone pops out, then the terminal that was hooked to the positive terminal of the battery is the positive one. Just find out which sides are positive, and hook them to the positive of the amp, so your speakers are in phase.
    Correct. Somewhere I heard that for low power levels, phase differences in small speakers (non-subwoofer) are practically inaudible.

    ~FordX
    Often imitated, never duplicated.

  5. #5
    I'm in your head Registered Member CVStroker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FordXplod93
    Correct. Somewhere I heard that for low power levels, phase differences in small speakers (non-subwoofer) are practically inaudible.

    ~FordX

    Yeah, but I've been told that the impedence changes of speakers that are out of phase change differently, and that's not good for the amp. I don't know if there is any truth to this, but it kinda makes sense to me. Although the guy who told me was one of those arrogant know it all electrical engineers who rarely works with physical audio, he works at a radio station on the transmitter.
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  6. #6
    CAR REVIEW ADMlN Registered Member Easy E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVStroker
    Yeah, but I've been told that the impedence changes of speakers that are out of phase change differently, and that's not good for the amp. I don't know if there is any truth to this, but it kinda makes sense to me. Although the guy who told me was one of those arrogant know it all electrical engineers who rarely works with physical audio, he works at a radio station on the transmitter.
    Ehh sounds like a false statement to me. Being out of phase only really matters for low notes and imaging. If u have 2 speakers one is out of phase it can mess up the imaging and make it sound hollow or just something weird. But for lower notes is when being out of phase matters it kills your bass.
    Thats my 2 cents.

  7. #7
    DIY Audio Registered Member ron.eddy's Avatar
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    Well, CVStroker, I am one of those, how did you so eloquently put it... "arrogant know it all electrical engineers who rarely works with physical audio" and I am here to tell you there is no truth to that statement he told you. Any good amplifier is built with a mirror topology and so it utilizes big swings in voltage to move the woofer, or cone. An example is an amplifier whose output is measured to swing between -56 volts and +56 volts. When a speaker is at 0 degrees phase and a signal comes into the amplifier, the signal is usually inverted (180 degrees) after the first stage of the amp, then inverted again following the second stage of the amp. At this point it is at the same phase as the input. When it goes through the output stage it does not get inverted again, and so comes out "in phase" with the input. Changing your amp's phase only alters that output stage's phase and does nothing different. At 180 degrees phase the only difference is that a positive half cycle at the input will be output as -56 volts (in our example) and a negative half cycle at the input will be output at +56 volts.

    From the other side of this, the load shown by a speaker is a complex number in the form a + jb where a is the real part (4 ohms for example) and the jb represents the complex load imposed by the actual movement of the cone (electromagnetics). If I remember correctly this impedence varies only by the frequency of the input, and since the phase of the speaker only alters which half cycle is positive and which is negative, and does NOT affect the frequency, the load imposed by the speaker does not change whether it is 180 or 0 degrees phase. If the load, therefore, does not change then the amp should not see any bad consequences.

    There are some theories which show that an NPN transistor, like those found for the positive half cycle in most amps are capable of more power than their negative half cycle counterparts (PNP). But I am not sure if the phase would have anything to do with this either, although I cant say for sure...

    Sorry for the lengthy explanation... I am an EE ya know...
    Ron

  8. #8
    DIY Audio Registered Member ron.eddy's Avatar
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    I would also like to quickly mention that if you were to mount two identical speakers in a perfectly sealed box, then wire them exactly 180 degrees out of phase, most if not all of the sound will be totally cancelled. This is because a speaker box works for one because it represents a rapid change of volume depending on the frequency being played. If the speakers are out of phase with each other, the net change in volume of the inside of the box will be zero, and therefore no sound will be emitted (for the most part)
    Ron

  9. #9
    I'm in your head Registered Member CVStroker's Avatar
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    Well, thanks for that info. Now it's gonna be hell convincing the guy (I help a DJ on weekends) that being out of phase is not hell for an amplifier. This comes from the same guy who thinks a little clipping from the amp is fine as long as it's not permanently on. Kinda funny that he doesn't realize that the amp has to clip pretty hard to trigger that LED. He seems to think his buddy is a genious when it comes to electricity. And if I say anything that opposes something he said, well, I'm automatically wrong. Oh well, for some people ignorance is bliss.
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  10. #10
    DIY Audio Registered Member ron.eddy's Avatar
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    Exactly. A buddy of mine once told me: You can't argue with ignorance. And thats the truth.

    Clipping is horrible no matter what, for the amp AND the speakers. He/She should know that!
    Ron

  11. #11
    Big JynX Registered Member
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    "Just find out which sides are positive, and hook them to the positive of the amp"

    so that's ALL i'm supposed to do?

    "make a plate for the tweeters"

    how do i make a plate, and why would i need one?


    AND...
    i hooked my tweeters up to my 4x6'z on the dash...they kinda hurt my ears at first cuz they're so loud...and just for the record (CV, Hess, etc.) yeah, they only increase tickz, clapz, symbols, etc....but my sound iz louder...:-)

    another question...
    ok, i don't use the cig' lighter in my car (cuz i don't smoke) so i usually just have my phone charger plugged in...but i wuz cleanin out my car, listenin to the radio, and i found the lighter, and decided to see if it'd still get hot n stuff (i wuz bored)...so i put it in and pushed it in and my cd player just shut completely off...it hasn't come back on since...
    doez ANYBODY know wut caused that?
    i realized that it wuz the wiring, so specifics would be better...thanx
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Registered Member
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    i agree with your friend saying the amp clipping briefly is fine. i base this on playing wall socket torture. you could plug a descent sub in over and over again without hurting it as long as you remove the plug as soon as you put it in. if you plug the sub in once and leave it in it will almost always blow even if its the same model as the one that took the quick burps. i believe when an amp clips it is like the same thing. so since the coils can take quick bursts of wall socket torture then why not quick bursts of clipping

  13. #13
    DIY Audio Registered Member ron.eddy's Avatar
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    >i agree with your friend saying the amp clipping briefly is fine. i base this on playing wall
    >socket torture. you could plug a descent sub in over and over again without hurting it as
    >long as you remove the plug as soon as you put it in. if you plug the sub in once and
    >leave it in it will almost always blow even if its the same model as the one that took the
    >quick burps. i believe when an amp clips it is like the same thing. so since the coils can
    >take quick bursts of wall socket torture then why not quick bursts of clipping

    There is one BIG difference. When you plug in a wall outlet you get a full 168 volt peak to peak sine wave at 60Hz (115V RMS). When an amp clips however it is a whole different story. Remember, the reason an amp clips is because its circuitry is incapable of providing the type of power the load is requesting. Most amps are designed with a dual line transformer in them. For example, the amp may operate between two power rails: 95 and -95 volts. Alright, so you are playing your music really loud and the gain is turned way up... This means the output at the load (speaker) is approaching 95 volts on the positive half-wave of the sine-wave and -95 volts at the negative half-wave of the sine-wave. However, if the gain is turned up so much so that the load "requests" 105 Volts at the peak of the positive half-wave and -105 volts at the low of the negative half-wave the amp WILL NOT be able to provide those extra ten volts on either end (transformer cannot create voltage), causing the top and bottom of the sine waves to be "clipped" off. What this means for the speaker is that for a fraction of a second at the top and bottom of the sine waves it is getting a CONSTANT DC 105 and -105 Volts! And as any good audio tech knows, straight DC is NEVER a good adea for a speaker. Thats why you have coupling capacitors throughout the amplifiers so NO DC gets through to the speaker. THAT is why straight clipping is ALWAYS bad, and in no way comparable to plugging in a speaker. In fact, if the sub could handle 168 to -168 plugging it into the outlet would be fine with some sort of current regulation.

    P.S. Funny how this whole post of mine has nothing to do with the original thread post.
    Ron

  14. #14
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    i used the wall socket mostly as an example for the high voltage. but if ya wanna talk about just dc then we will talk about a battery. if you just touch the terminals from a speaker to a car battery itll pop but be fine if you hold the wires on there will be lots of smoke. i hardly believe that if the clipping light is just starting to blink that there will be enough dc to kill the coil

  15. #15
    Practical Audio Guru Site Moderator CT!!'s Avatar
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    If any car audio amp you bought in the last decade allows a DC signal to come through to the speakers, its a crap amp (and likely a hazard). The only way clipping the signal will damage your speaker is if the amp overpowers it from the increased output that the clipped signal provides.

    2 ways of proving this in a practical manner...

    1. Clip the signal with low wattage output. You can do this basically anywhere...your PC speakers, home speakers, car speakers, etc. How to clip a signal? Easy as well....play a square wave. Just lower the volume. No clipped signal you ever feed to a speaker will result in a worse wave form then a square wave. A number of years ago, I played a 60hz square wave through a 3.5 speaker for over 3 hours to demostrate that its not the clipped signal that hurts the speaker, its the increased power output from the amp that the signal causes. How did I compensate for the increased power? Turn the volume down.

    2. Use a speaker that can handle well past the theoretical limit of the amplifier in question. Again, a number of years ago, I demostrated this with a Aura MR4150Q (4 channel amp) with two of its channels bridged to an Aura 1808 (18" 8 ohm woofer capable of 1500 watts continous, 3200 watts peak). Again, square wave, but the difference is, I played this at full volume for a continuous 30 minutes. Didn't even blink. Neat thing about the 1808's is that the magnet assembly is easily removable, allowing the user direct access to the voice coil. Not one bubble, not one scorch mark. The 4150Q's output at extreme load was nowhere near the capacity that the 1808 could handle.
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  16. #16
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    for those pioneers, they dont sound like you need any additional amplification besides what your deck supplies... It all kinda depends, but withmagnets that small i couldnt see rms being over 50wpc. So a average deck would supply them with enough power.

  17. #17
    DIY Audio Registered Member ron.eddy's Avatar
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    This is gonna be a long response:

    Those are definately some interesting experiments and you obviously have good stuff. But you have to remember not everyone has good stuff, so I would still try to avoid the clipping situation as much as possible, ya know.

    As for the DC comment, that is just ludicrous. When an amp clips it IS sending DC (flat line... constant voltage...) to the speaker! No amp will allow DC to come directly from the power supply's rails (thats what the coupling caps are for), but that doesn't mean if the audio signal clips DC won't go to the speaker. You said it yourself: "The only way clipping the signal will damage your speaker is if the amp overpowers it from the increased output that the clipped signal provides". This increased output is because of the fact that a sine wave output has a peak for a microsecond, where as a clip has a peak for a lot longer. Not to mention you are overlooking so much with your tests:

    When you play at full volume (with most frequencies - 60Hz Square in your case) with a quality built (or i should say properly built) amplifier, it's power supply will NOT be outputting its full power, since the designer likely gave the supply an overhead of as much as 15-30 percent for dynamics and such, especially in a car amp where a large transformer isn't neccessary to get the voltages like in a home amp. But even more important than if the amp is built with overhead in mind or not, when that LED comes on saying your amp "clipped" it is usually because some output condition has been met which has caused the output of the amp to be at or near the full voltage of the supply rails (sometimes as high as 100V). But REALLY what this means is that all of the output transistors have just gone out of their "active" region and into "saturation", which means they are acting as a short circuit, allowing any current through (depending on the changing load of the speaker). You are right when you said clipping only wrecks speakers if the amp overpowers it for the clipping section of the audio signal, but playing a square wave does not emulate clipping as far as I know in almost all amplifiers.

    As a practical example of that, take tube amp's... Play a square wave on most decent tube amps (actually probably any tube amp), even at full volume, and it will look like a square wave on an oscilloscope hooked to the output (unless its full volume causes it to clip because of no overhead power - explained later). However, overdrive a tube amp sometime and observe it's output... It will consist of the clipping, but instead of looking like a square wave, the tops will be slightly rounded due to the nature of tubes. In the case of the transistors, they don't have those properties and so they go into saturation as i mentioned earlier. Incidentally, this is probably the biggest reason some people prefer tube amp sound to solid state, since the distortion is "warmer". This clipping could be caused by too high of gain at the input or perhaps too much voltage input signal, or even as simple as that its a poorly designed amplifier.

    Being that most amp companies rate their T.H.D. (which includes clipping incidentally) at Full Output Power I highly doubt the amps you tested allowed clipping at full output (but I could be wrong). This is one BIG reason most companies don't want clipping at full volume at any frequency, since it will up their measured distortion (bad for sales, hehe)

    What I am trying to say here is that REAL clipping IS bad for everything involved, even if in your case you feel your stuff will handle it. But I can see how if you have a rugged amp and a good speaker it should never hurt it...
    Ron

  18. #18
    Practical Audio Guru Site Moderator CT!!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron.eddy
    This is gonna be a long response:


    As for the DC comment, that is just ludicrous. When an amp clips it IS sending DC (flat line... constant voltage...) to the speaker!

    But playing a square wave does not emulate clipping as far as I know in almost all amplifiers.

    What I am trying to say here is that REAL clipping IS bad for everything involved, even if in your case you feel your stuff will handle it. But I can see how if you have a rugged amp and a good speaker it should never hurt it...
    No. Clipped output, even for a "microsecond", is not a DC.

    Please read through the following:
    http://www.welcometotheden.8k.com/caraudio/clipping.PDF

    A square wave is a perfect emulation of severe clipping. In fact, if you were to look at the waveform of your "microsecond" flat line burst of a clipped signal, what better example of this would there be other then a square wave?

    As for REAL clipping...I didn't know there was anything known as fake clipping.
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  19. #19
    DIY Audio Registered Member ron.eddy's Avatar
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    Wow. That was a very interesting, albeit long, article or forum posting or whatever. Thank you CT for showing me that. I enjoyed the read. Well, I guess I was wrong. He did mention clipping will harm mids and tweeters, I wonder why that is? Must just be cuz of the power thing (more power reaching the speaker).

    I am still not understanding the DC thing. But I guess I will accept that article as fact. When we deal with square waves in projects and the like they are switched DC signals. In fact, you form them from DC. Which is odd. Can you explain to me why in computers, which use transistors as switches (similar to the saturated mode i was speaking of in my earlier post), the square waves that come out, in the sequence of 1's (usually 3.3V) and 0's (Usually 0V) is considered a DC signal (switched on and off of course, so I guess AC in the broad sense) and an audio signal, which in many single railed amps represents a sequence of, say 30V and 0V sections is considered totally AC? I realize that AS A WHOLE the thing is ac, since it is changing over time and has a period, but if you analyze one half of the period, say the 30V (or the 3.3V) section, that signal in and of itself can be thought of as DC, can it not, even for a fraction of a second. Think of it this way, what if you drove your amp at 1hz, not that you ever would, would it not be very similar (exactly similar) to you putting a battery across the leads for 1/2 second, then reversing it for 1/2 second and repeating? I am completely confounded as to why that is not a DC signal. And I assure you very low frequency sqaure waves such as 15hz or less will not go through a capacitor correctly (due to the time constant of the cap being much shorter than the rate of change of the signal, thereby causing the cap to reach the same voltage and thus cutting off the input signal until it changes to a different voltage), which is a bit of confusion as well since AC is defined by its ability to go through caps... So all and all I am a lot clearer on things but that AC / DC thing is bugging me now.

    Anyway, I am glad you showed me that article and I am glad to know all the clipping my subs have been doing aren't hurting them at all!
    Ron

  20. #20
    Practical Audio Guru Site Moderator CT!!'s Avatar
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    Wow. That was a very interesting, albeit long, article or forum posting or whatever. Thank you CT for showing me that. I enjoyed the read. Well, I guess I was wrong. He did mention clipping will harm mids and tweeters, I wonder why that is? Must just be cuz of the power thing (more power reaching the speaker).
    Correct. Its power.

    I am still not understanding the DC thing. But I guess I will accept that article as fact. When we deal with square waves in projects and the like they are switched DC signals.
    I have been correcting the "DC myth" within these forums since the mid 90's. It seems so simple...that micopicture of a clipped waveform being DC, that the myth perpetuates itself like a virus. Not to say I'm Mr.Supersmartypantsthatsalwaysright, its only because this is one of those things that should have been put to rest about 20 years ago, but keeps popping up all the time.

    Can you explain to me why in computers, which use transistors as switches (similar to the saturated mode i was speaking of in my earlier post), the square waves that come out, in the sequence of 1's (usually 3.3V) and 0's (Usually 0V) is considered a DC signal (switched on and off of course, so I guess AC in the broad sense) and an audio signal, which in many single railed amps represents a sequence of, say 30V and 0V sections is considered totally AC? I realize that AS A WHOLE the thing is ac, since it is changing over time and has a period, but if you analyze one half of the period, say the 30V (or the 3.3V) section, that signal in and of itself can be thought of as DC, can it not, even for a fraction of a second.
    Was that a question or a statement? Haha. Besides, you're the engineer...I'm not. I have played the car audio game well over a decade...hence the practical audio statement. I'm not an engineer. Although, if you asked me about 6 years ago, I could probably answer it.

    Maybe someone else wishes to pipe up...

    "What is the difference between a microsecond snapshot of a clipped AC signal to a straight line DC one?"

    Think of it this way, what if you drove your amp at 1hz, not that you ever would, would it not be very similar (exactly similar) to you putting a battery across the leads for 1/2 second, then reversing it for 1/2 second and repeating?
    I have. Sorta. A lot of people with big woofers tend to do this alot. A 1hz cycle shows woofer excursion really well (to the naked eye...its obviously not full woofer excursion that you would have at greater power levels). However, the amp is not putting out enough power at that low of cycle to cause thermal issues with the coil. Amp design and impedence of the coil tend to prevent it.

    I am completely confounded as to why that is not a DC signal. And I assure you very low frequency sqaure waves such as 15hz or less will not go through a capacitor correctly (due to the time constant of the cap being much shorter than the rate of change of the signal, thereby causing the cap to reach the same voltage and thus cutting off the input signal until it changes to a different voltage), which is a bit of confusion as well since AC is defined by its ability to go through caps...
    Again...you're the engineer...I'm not. It doesn't bug me because practically, I'm not listening to anything at 15hz. No one is. In fact, if you heard anything (typically its not till 18hz), it would be woofer noise. Not till 20hz (on a good woofer, slightly more for lesser ones) would you hear anything resembling the lower octaves. And we only hear down to 20hz...thats not to say that your woofer and power application is providing the output at 20hz to actually hear anything at all.

    Anyway, I am glad you showed me that article and I am glad to know all the clipping my subs have been doing aren't hurting them at all!
    Just becareful of how you say that. Again, its not clipping itself that is causing the problem with blown speakers. Its mismarketing and increased power output caused by clipping that is blowing speakers.

    If you are interested in http://www.autosound2000.com/TechBri...chbriefs1.html
    which a lot of that document is based on, I have the full set that I haven't looked through for the last 3 years that I'll let go for cheap. Offers open to anyone.

    And sorry for lack of spellcheck. Busy at work today. ;)
    Last edited by CT!!; 10-11-2004 at 09:11.
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  21. #21
    DIY Audio Registered Member ron.eddy's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot CT. I have a lot to learn.
    Ron

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron.eddy

    I am still not understanding the DC thing. !
    not to bring this back from dead.. but.. arent our car amps consisting of FET's which means they CAN?T produce a DC output?? since the switch on and off many times a second.. they have a frequency.. am i correct??
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  23. #23
    Team Gossamer Registered Member Prowler573's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JynX
    "Just find out which sides are positive, and hook them to the positive of the amp"

    so that's ALL i'm supposed to do?

    "make a plate for the tweeters"

    how do i make a plate, and why would i need one?


    AND...
    i hooked my tweeters up to my 4x6'z on the dash...they kinda hurt my ears at first cuz they're so loud...and just for the record (CV, Hess, etc.) yeah, they only increase tickz, clapz, symbols, etc....but my sound iz louder...:-)

    another question...
    ok, i don't use the cig' lighter in my car (cuz i don't smoke) so i usually just have my phone charger plugged in...but i wuz cleanin out my car, listenin to the radio, and i found the lighter, and decided to see if it'd still get hot n stuff (i wuz bored)...so i put it in and pushed it in and my cd player just shut completely off...it hasn't come back on since...
    doez ANYBODY know wut caused that?
    i realized that it wuz the wiring, so specifics would be better...thanx
    As it seems everyone else here is a bit more knowledgeable about the specific situation you're talking about I'm somewhat at a disadvantage in attempting to respond - but I'll try.
    If what I think you're trying to do is correct and add a set of component tweeters to the same output source as a set of 4x6s - if the tweeters have a passive crossover of some sort they can be attached directly to the same '+' and '-' amplifier outputs that you're connecting the 4x6s to ~ providing the amp you're using is 2 Ohm stable and the RMS output @ 2 Ohm divided in half isn't greater than the RMS rating of any of the speakers in question. If I'm completely off base and haven't remotely answered what you're asking I'm sorry!

    A plate would involve some measurements being taken and employ the use of a saw (or some sort of cutting tool - a saw, a Dremel, etc...) Why do you need one? Again, as I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish I cannot say why the regs are trying to steer you that way.

    Possibilities on the lighter having killed your stereo -

    1) The head unit (for some odd reason???) is wired into the same circuit as the lighter and when the lighter, by being in use trying to heat, drew too much juice combined with your deck and popped the fuse that manages that circuit.

    2) There was some kind of debris in the lighter socket itself and pushing the lighter head into it shorted the circuit and blew the fuse - again, why that would affect the head unit unless it was oddly wired into the same circuit as the lighter is really beyond me.

    Normally even with OEM wiring and a factory radio the lighter (or 12v aux. outlet in some newer cars that are just that - outlets, not designed for use with lighters - just accessories like your phone, a PDA, etc...) is on a separate circuit. One generally doesn't affect the other but I'd look into the fuse box first and see is that the issue. Why would the lighter do it and not your phone? That charger for your cell draws considerably less amperage than the lighter does while heating so wouldn't strain that circuit as much being used in tandem with the head unit.

    Hope this helped to some degree
    Good luck!
    Last edited by Prowler573; 01-22-2005 at 19:36. Reason: spelling
    HU: Kenwood eXcelon XXV-01D
    Interior Amp: Kenwood Performance Standard (early eXcelon) KAC-PS500F
    Sub Amp: Diamond Audio Technology D61500.1 (@ 2 Ohms)
    Mids/Highs: Diamond Audio Technology M6 components (x2 ~ front and rear)
    Sub: Diamond Audio Technology TDX12D4 (upgraded to Diamond's Big Dawg!)
    Security: Prestige / Sturm, Ruger & Co. Inc

    All that stuffed into a 1995 Geo (YES, a GEO!) Prizm
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