A little more serious question -- MOSFET amps

[Dusty Chalk]

So I noticed that Pioneer have some MOSFET amps, and since I have a MOSFET headphone amp, I'm pretty happy with its sound, I think I want to go that route. Who else besides Pioneer does MOSFET amps, if anyone? Any opinions on Pioneers? I'll be keeping the stock source and sub, and upgrading the speaker drivers (2-way in front) to Focal two-ways. Not sure which ones yet, prob Polyglass or Access.

[phrozen5100]

MOSFET = Marketing Of Stupid Fuc*ing Electronic Transistors. MOSFETs are simply a type of transistor thats been used for quite a while now. Alot of manufacturers seem to like to use their "unique MOSFET" devices as a sales gimmick. So yeah, don't pay too much attention to the term MOSFET, just about all the car audio amps use 'em nowadays...even Pyramid...hell just look at 'em advertising it all the damn time...

[Dusty Chalk]

Actually, I'm sold on MOSFET not due to the marketing, as I've never heard the marketing before (I'm only just now getting into car audio). I'm sold on it because I have heard it before and I like the sound.

But yeah, I do believe they sound different, which is why I was asking.

Also, it depends on where you put the MOSFETS. If you're only using them on the power supply, it kind of defeats the purpose -- I want it somewhere in the audio chain. That's where I'm used to hearing it...or rather, I should say, that's where I like hearing them.

[phrozen5100]

Like I said before, in car audio 99% of the amps used have MOSFETs...so don't worry too much about it...

[FordXplod93]

Actually, I'm sold on MOSFET not due to the marketing, as I've never heard the marketing before (I'm only just now getting into car audio). I'm sold on it because I have heard it before and I like the sound.

But yeah, I do believe they sound different, which is why I was asking.

Also, it depends on where you put the MOSFETS. If you're only using them on the power supply, it kind of defeats the purpose -- I want it somewhere in the audio chain. That's where I'm used to hearing it...or rather, I should say, that's where I like hearing them.

So when's the last time you've heard a solid state amplifier without MOSFET transistors?

[inteva6184]

my marantz from the late 60's i think its bangin

[CVStroker]

my marantz from the late 60's i think its bangin

You sure that's a solid state amp?

[inteva6184]

ya unless the tubes are disguised as caps

[CVStroker]

ya unless the tubes are disguised as caps

Ya never know, those hippies were pretty crafty.

Didn't know they had solid state amps in the 60s, guess I do now.

[inteva6184]

ill check on dates i think its from the 60's though
]

[Dusty Chalk]

Alright, please excuse my ignorance, but I thought MOSFET was not the same thing as an operational amplifier, which I thought was more ubiquitous in solid state amplification. At least, in the home audio world, most solid-state electronics do not use MOSFET transistors, that I know for sure. I thought a MOSFET was a primitive device that was more akin to a tube than to an op-amp.

I do realize that 99% of car audio use transistors, but there are different types of transistors, of which MOSFET is only one, correct?

Wanders off to read this.

[FordXplod93]

Alright, please excuse my ignorance, but I thought MOSFET was not the same thing as an operational amplifier, which I thought was more ubiquitous in solid state amplification. At least, in the home audio world, most solid-state electronics do not use MOSFET transistors, that I know for sure. I thought a MOSFET was a primitive device that was more akin to a tube than to an op-amp.

I do realize that 99% of car audio use transistors, but there are different types of transistors, of which MOSFET is only one, correct?

Wanders off to read this.

You are correct. MOSFETs are transistors, not op-amps. However, I believe that, like any technical feature, MOSFETs are as much a marketeering ploy as an actual benefit of solid state amplifiers. Therefore, it stands to reason that if you line up two equally powered amplifiers head-to-head, you won't be able to tell an audible difference between a MOSFET amp and a non-MOSFET amp.

~FordX

[Keepa]

It's interesting that there's all the advertising of MOSFETs in amps and head units. Because when you get to many a high-end amp, most don't use MOSFETs...well, at least in the output stage.

[CVStroker]

I don't know about you guys, but I couldn't give a crap what technology is used in an amp as long as it doesn't blow 10 days out of warranty and sounds good. About as deep as I got technology wise when choosing an amp is what class it is, I prefer class D for subs, class A/B for everything else, most of that comes from an efficiency standpoint. I could care less if the power stage or output stage uses tubes, transistors, or hamsters in wheels, if it sounds good, I'll buy it.

Pretty much every mobile audio amp except the super cheap, and super high end ones use MOSFETs in the power and output stages. There is nothing great about them, and nothing bad about them either.

[lopvin]

my dads got a pioneer head unit with mosfet amp, i cant give ya stats on it or anything, but my mate gav had a clarion and same speakers as my dad and the clarion sounded much better.
now thats technical specs for ya!

and it stands for 'metal oxide semiconductor field effect transistor' anyway but i agree with cv. my dads head unit aint anything special so its not like cos my dads had mosfet that my mates pwned it or anything like that, but i know they got EXACTLY the same speakers

[Dusty Chalk]

...if you line up two equally powered amplifiers head-to-head, you won't be able to tell an audible difference between a MOSFET amp and a non-MOSFET amp.

Well, I've already mentioned that I've heard a MOSFET (headphone) amp and liked it, and for the record, preferred it to its "little brother", an op-amp based (headphone) amp. The amps in question were the Creek OBH-11 and the Creek OBH-11SE.

So, to all you who have popped in this thread to offer nothing constructive other than MOSFET-bashing, thanks for nothing.

Anyone else who has something constructive to say, please feel free to pop in. I'll be ignoring the rest of youse.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back. The point about "if it sounds good" is a good point. The ultimate test is what it sounds like. And the point about it being Class A or Class A/B or whatever is probably just as much a part of the sound.

[jadedstar499]

Get an MTX Thunder Amp, you will NOT find a better amp for the price. It is your biggest bang for the buck. High Quality materials, Pure Power, Good Price.

[CT!!]

So, to all you who have popped in this thread to offer nothing constructive other than MOSFET-bashing, thanks for nothing.

I may be missing the relative post in question, but who exactly was bashing MOSFETs? I mean, it would be kinda ironic considering about 80% of the car audio amps used today use them. As mentioned as well, the other 20% is probably comprised of IC (basic head units and ultra cheap flea market amps), specialized types such as Linear Power's T03's and tube/tube hybrids.

As also mentioned, wattage to wattage...they do sound the same to the naked ear. The problem, (again!) as also mentioned, is marketing. Occam's razor basically sums up your hearing differences in the devices you stated as likely to be power output differences rather then transistor types. But marketing and word of mouth/personal anecdotes will always tell you otherwise.

"The point about "if it sounds good" is a good point".

No, its the only point. That is what you want to concentrate 100% on when it comes to audio components. If you are that concerned on transistor types and their ability to affect the audiable spectrum of human hearing, I would suggest an electronics class, coupled with a few in human physiology.

I suppose the classic links for "Can we hear differences in amplifiers" debates would also come in handy here as well. Really, there is no reason to focus on the type of transistor in a particular device.

[FordXplod93]

I may be missing the relative post in question, but who exactly was bashing MOSFETs? I mean, it would be kinda ironic considering about 80% of the car audio amps used today use them. As mentioned as well, the other 20% is probably comprised of IC (basic head units and ultra cheap flea market amps), specialized types such as Linear Power's T03's and tube/tube hybrids.

As also mentioned, wattage to wattage...they do sound the same to the naked ear. The problem, (again!) as also mentioned, is marketing. Occam's razor basically sums up your hearing differences in the devices you stated as likely to be power output differences rather then transistor types. But marketing and word of mouth/personal anecdotes will always tell you otherwise.

"The point about "if it sounds good" is a good point".

No, its the only point. That is what you want to concentrate 100% on when it comes to audio components. If you are that concerned on transistor types and their ability to affect the audiable spectrum of human hearing, I would suggest an electronics class, coupled with a few in human physiology.

I suppose the classic links for "Can we hear differences in amplifiers" debates would also come in handy here as well. Really, there is no reason to focus on the type of transistor in a particular device.

'

Preach on, brotha mod! ;)

~FordX

[Dusty Chalk]

I may be missing the relative post in question, but who exactly was bashing MOSFETs?

I may have been speaking too succinctly, but several people piped up to downplay the importance of certain characteristics of amps -- namely, their inclusion of MOSFETs in the audio chain. You had to be blind not to have seen the posts that I'm referring to, but instead, I will assume that you are trying to downplay their negativity in what I had hoped would be an informative thread.

As also mentioned, wattage to wattage...they do sound the same to the naked ear.

Whoa! Wrong. Plain and simple, not even going to argue with you about this. You can tell me what you hear, but do not tell me what I hear -- I hear a difference.

Occam's razor basically sums up your hearing differences in the devices you stated as likely to be power output differences rather then transistor types.

Look, I understand if you disagree with the premise -- but if you do, then butt out. I was asking for advice for people who might be of like minds to me.

Besides, how is this any different than that of which you are accusing me? Specifically, it would be just like it if I came in and said, "which amp has the highest power output -- it must sound the best, I've heard high power output amps, and they sounded better than those pansy ass SET amps." If you disagree with me, fine. If you want to sway me, there's a way to make me want to listen to you, and there's a way to alienate me. Guess which one you're doing?

But marketing and word of mouth/personal anecdotes will always tell you otherwise.

As I mentioned before, I am not a victim of marketing -- I didn't even know it was an over-marketed concept until I started this thread. I am only talking about what I've heard.

I suppose the classic links for "Can we hear differences in amplifiers" debates would also come in handy here as well. Really, there is no reason to focus on the type of transistor in a particular device.

Maybe not to you.

Look, it's like this. If this were an alcohol forum, and there were two threads, "What's the best beer?" and "What's the best wine?", it would be like the beerdrinkers going over to the winelovers thread and saying, don't drink wine, drink beer. Just as it would be for the wine drinkers to threadcrap on the beerdrinking thread and say, "beer is bad for you, drink wine". Just stick to your own threads.

I guess there isn't anyone here who can help me...I'll wander off now...buh-bye.

[Easy E]

Fine if u want mosfet amps look into MTX amplifiers. But there has been a blind test between a Mcintosh amp the one that cost like $500+ dollars versus a Pyramid amp the crappiest amp u can buy almost. All crossovers etc were disabled. The setup the amps in a blind test. Each amp was setup to put out the same power, and they were putting out around the same distortion as well. No one could guess which amp was the Pyramid amp. I think its what $10k if u can hear the difference. Basically a Watt is a Watt

Now there is extra features like good crossovers and how well a amp will ease into clipping etc. Basically more power the amp has better its going to sound. Also reliability is a big factor etc. SOme amps are overrated the cheap ones, other amps are underrated the real big exspensive ones.

No amplifier I know use opamps to actually amplify the signal for its output stage. There is opamps etc for crossovers etc in amplifiers. What u heard in differences could of been a difference in power one put out more powerbefore clipping so it sounded cleaner etc. But out point is modern amps u cant hear a difference when they are not clipping etc. But yea a good solid amp brand would be MTX. Also JBL, and JL and such make good amps as well.

[CT!!]

I may have been speaking too succinctly, but several people piped up to downplay the importance of certain characteristics of amps -- namely, their inclusion of MOSFETs in the audio chain. You had to be blind not to have seen the posts that I'm referring to, but instead, I will assume that you are trying to downplay their negativity in what I had hoped would be an informative thread.

Post the negative comments in question and I'll concede to your point....otherwise, I'm not seeing where several people went out to bash mosfets.

Whoa! Wrong. Plain and simple, not even going to argue with you about this. You can tell me what you hear, but do not tell me what I hear -- I hear a difference.Look, I understand if you disagree with the premise -- but if you do, then butt out. I was asking for advice for people who might be of like minds to me.

You're human right? Then yes, I can tell you what you can hear. A similar analogy would be to have you claim you can hear 96khz and need an amplifier to provide that. You understand that a normal, intelligent human would be somewhat incrediculous to your claims. So, again...yes, I can tell you what you hear with some comfort.

Besides, how is this any different than that of which you are accusing me?

You know....reading through the thread for the sixth time, the only one that has any real negative vibe is you. I could post this statement up as a poll for the rest of the thread participants if you feel my opinion is unfounded.

Specifically, it would be just like it if I came in and said, "which amp has the highest power output -- it must sound the best, I've heard high power output amps, and they sounded better than those pansy ass SET amps."

Everything was fine till you stated pansy ass set amps...I'm sure opinions fly well on the type of op amps are the best....its typically what gets engineering background audiophiles all twisted up in conversations such as this.

If you disagree with me, fine. If you want to sway me, there's a way to make me want to listen to you, and there's a way to alienate me. Guess which one you're doing?

Would it matter if I told you I don't care if I alienate you? I may be a moderator, but I'm not a salesman. You don't like the answers being given to you, shop somewhere else. You strolled in here with an obvious lack of car audio knowledge.

"Who else besides Pioneer does MOSFET amps, if anyone?"

Pretty hard not to see that from the above statement alone. But the kicker was that you were told your answer....and yet you went on a tirade about people not helping or bashing a MOSFET.

As I mentioned before, I am not a victim of marketing -- I didn't even know it was an over-marketed concept until I started this thread. I am only talking about what I've heard. Maybe not to you.

Recall what I said about word of mouth/personal anecdotes. If marketing didn't get you, that did. Everyone has a friend, a relative or a friend's relative that seen, heard or did something that was incrediable, but it doesn't make it fact. Facts are set in stone and recreatable in a controlled environment. Jesse's uncle Bob who has ears like a bat and can hear up to 96khz because he says so is not fact.

Look, it's like this. If this were an alcohol forum, and there were two threads, "What's the best beer?" and "What's the best wine?", it would be like the beerdrinkers going over to the winelovers thread and saying, don't drink wine, drink beer. Just as it would be for the wine drinkers to threadcrap on the beerdrinking thread and say, "beer is bad for you, drink wine".

What the hell does that anology have anything to do with what happened in here. You wanted to know about car audio amps, you attended a car audio forum. If you want to know about home audio amps, go to a home audio forum. If your analogy would have held true in that case, it would be the home audio folks rolling in over here stating car audio sucks...or vice versa. Considering we are all about sound, rather then what environment its being played in, that doesn't happen too often. Oh sure, as two respective groups, we have opinons on each other's opinions, but both are ultimately after the same goal. Quality audio.

Just stick to your own threads.

Car audio thread. Car audio moderator. This is my thread...and all others posted on this board. In fact, not only is it MY thread, its also everyone elses who chooses to participate. You want YOUR own thread, I suggest you start your own web forum.

I guess there isn't anyone here who can help me...I'll wander off now...buh-bye.

Buh-bye, Peter. Looks like you would be better off sticking to Stereophile then at a measly car audio forum. Have a good one.

[FordXplod93]

Good post, CT. As far as I saw, there was only one post on this thread that could be viewed as "MOSFET bashing", where phrozen referred to them as "Marketing Of Stupid Fuc*ing Electronic Transistors". However, I believe he was just exaggerating to make a point about the heavy-handedness of marketing. He didn't go on to say that MOSFET amps suck and we shouldn't use them. He complimented the point that they are widely used in all car audio products. If you look at the two models of headphone amps that Mr. Chalk said he heard differences in, they are definitely of the "stereophile" quality, so I can see where he has been misled about audio quality and such. But you just can't make some people see the truth. If I had 2 car audio moderators and everyone else BUT me voicing a difference in opinion, I'd be inclined to consider what they had to say.

~FordX

[Dusty Chalk]

You're human right? Then yes, I can tell you what you can hear. A similar analogy would be to have you claim you can hear 96khz and need an amplifier to provide that. You understand that a normal, intelligent human would be somewhat incrediculous to your claims. So, again...yes, I can tell you what you hear with some comfort.

Nope, you're wrong. I can hear the difference between a 44.1kHz sampled recording and a 96kHz sampled recording. Every time. Consistently. 100% accuracy, 1.000 batting average. Perhaps I'm that Jesse's Uncle Bob to which you refer. The elusive "secondhand story", and yet, here I am, telling my own story, firsthand.

Bad analogy.

You know....reading through the thread for the sixth time, the only one that has any real negative vibe is you. I could post this statement up as a poll for the rest of the thread participants if you feel my opinion is unfounded.

Oh, please. I didn't get negative until you started preaching to the converted at my expense. My first response was quite polite, yet digging for more information. There's a difference between being negative, and disagreeing. Just because I don't jump on the "all amplifiers sound the same" bandwagon that you people seem to have going here, doesn't mean I'm argumentative. An intellectually healthy, well-rounded community should have a good cross-section of opinions, including the less popular ones.

You strolled in here with an obvious lack of car audio knowledge.

No argument there, and guess who educated me? The local salesman was more helpful than you guys.

Alright, yes, that was negative. Purposefully so -- I don't see any difference between that and some of the slams you've lain in my general direction.

Recall what I said about word of mouth/personal anecdotes. If marketing didn't get you, that did. Everyone has a friend, a relative or a friend's relative that seen, heard or did something that was incrediable, but it doesn't make it fact. Facts are set in stone and recreatable in a controlled environment. Jesse's uncle Bob who has ears like a bat and can hear up to 96khz because he says so is not fact.

Nope. I said that I heard the difference for myself, not because someone else told me. That's what got me.

Even FordXplod93 got it. Maybe he should be the mod. Oh, never mind, he is.

FordXplod93 -- if everyone around me told me that I can't hear the difference between two things of which I was sure I could hear the difference, I'd be inclined to develop a serious conspiracy complex before I'd start believing them.

I mean, what if everyone around you started saying "the sky is purple". Would you say, "hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe the sky isn't blue"? Or would you say, "bunch o nutters"?

And then walk off into the sunset.

[CT!!]

Nope, you're wrong. I can hear the difference between a 44.1kHz sampled recording and a 96kHz sampled recording. Every time. Consistently. 100% accuracy, 1.000 batting average. Perhaps I'm that Jesse's Uncle Bob to which you refer. The elusive "secondhand story", and yet, here I am, telling my own story, firsthand.

Bad analogy.

I was refering to audible frequency range and if we are still on the same page, then pretty impressive as humans can only hear into the 20khz range. I guess you showed me, *Batman.

*tounge in cheek, less you consider it another slam....

Oh, please. I didn't get negative until you started preaching to the converted at my expense. My first response was quite polite, yet digging for more information. There's a difference between being negative, and disagreeing.

Again..the first real negative response was yours. Wasn't anyone elses.

Just because I don't jump on the "all amplifiers sound the same" bandwagon that you people seem to have going here, doesn't mean I'm argumentative.

Actually, you apparently took quite the offense to it because you got pretty touchy after my post for some reason.

An intellectually healthy, well-rounded community should have a good cross-section of opinions, including the less popular ones.

Thats fine. No arugment with that. However, if someone (as you so eloquently mention further below) states the sky's purple, is that considered a less popular opinion...or is it considered simply wrong. A hard pill to swallow, indeed.

No argument there, and guess who educated me? The local salesman was more helpful than you guys.

Ahh, feel the love.

Alright, yes, that was negative. Purposefully so -- I don't see any difference between that and some of the slams you've lain in my general direction.

*sigh* No slams....checked and rechecked. Maybe you are too senstive. Consider a break from all the forums and message boards you attend. It helps.

Nope. I said that I heard the difference for myself, not because someone else told me. That's what got me.

Hey, thats great. A friend of my uncle saw the ghost of a alien Elvis. I doubt anyone told him that...but his experience has to be legit...because he couldn't be wrong. Yep...pretty extreme sarcasm there, but you are not the first person that stood so valently by your claims. I can't fault you for that and really have no paitence to "guide" you on the subject. After your replies to the thread particpants...I really don't want to. But hey...I suppose the flat earth society goes through this all the time.

Even FordXplod93 got it. Maybe he should be the mod. Oh, never mind, he is.

Yep. Guess who signed him on because of lack of patience.

And then walk off into the sunset.

Thought you already did this, Peter. Buh-bye again.