Doors and dash speaker wiring

[Eventix]

I'm swapping out the OEM speakers in my Dodge Ram Quad Cab with equal size but aftermarket upgrades. Speaker sizes are as follows:

3.5's in dash
6.5's in front doors
5.25's in rear doors

I haven't purchased the dash or door speakers but I was leaning towards Soundstream's Tarantula line.Soundstream's Tarantula
Odly, the Soundstream speakers are 3ohm.

For lows I'll be using two Kicker CompVR 8's powered by a Crossfire VR401. Head unit is Kenwood's KDCX791. I have a Crossfire VR404 for the mid and high range.

I would like to keep use of the rear speakers but put emphasis on the fronts. How should I wire door and dash speakers? The two scenarios I have considered thus far are:

1. Power the dash and front door speakers with the VR404 and rear fill with the head unit.

2. Power all speakers with the VR404 by wiring the dash and front doors in parallel (1.5 ohm, amp is only 2ohm stable)?

Suggestions are appreciated? SQ is my objective but I do like to crank the Aphrodite and Rancid.

[KirK]

Hi Eventix. If that amplifier is stable down to an impedance of 2 ohms I think it won't be able to power the Tarantula's down to 1.5 ohms. But, if you had your mind set on the Tarantula's then maybe you can wire them in series to present a 6 ohm impedance to the amplifier. However, I have never wired anything besides subwoofers in series. It might be worthwhile to ask the manufaturer or a retailler. See if you can acquire like a wiring diagram possibly..
I know of mono block amplifiers stable down to impedences 1 ohm. However, those are usually subwoofer amplifiers.
Another option too is to use Crutchfields "Outfit my Car" feature. By entering data specific to your vehicle, you can see what speakers (or components) can fit your vehicle. You might want to look and see if Adire Audio sells speakers that conform to the dimensions for your specific vehicle. CR has kind of been a ghost forum for a while. Possibly, Easy E or CVStroker might be able to help .

[Eventix]

Hi Eventix. If that amplifier is stable down to an impedance of 2 ohms I think it won't be able to power the Tarantula's down to 1.5 ohms. But, if you had your mind set on the Tarantula's then maybe you can wire them in series to present a 6 ohm impedance to the amplifier.

I thought maybe someone here may know a little more about risk associated with running mid/high range at slightly lower impedance (1.5 vs 2 ohm). I have read that risk isn't as great as is with subwoofers.

I haven't made the purchase. I like to try the lesser known gear vs. the mainstream (i.e. JL audio, pioneer, alpine etc.). Adire? I thought they were finished http://www.adireaudio.com/. REaudio would be nice but they don't sell 3.5's.

[KirK]

I thought maybe someone here may know a little more about risk associated with running mid/high range at slightly lower impedance (1.5 vs 2 ohm). I have read that risk isn't as great as is with subwoofers.

I haven't made the purchase. I like to try the lesser known gear vs. the mainstream (i.e. JL audio, pioneer, alpine etc.). Adire? I thought they were finished http://www.adireaudio.com/. REaudio would be nice but they don't sell 3.5's.

Whoops... Sorry about that Adire recommendation. Didn't know they closed their doors.

[KirK]

I thought maybe someone here may know a little more about risk associated with running mid/high range at slightly lower impedance (1.5 vs 2 ohm)

Why are you putting down my advice? I just thought I would try to help you out since Easy E and CVStroker haven't been here for a while.
If you're so sure about running those Tarantula's in parallel off that amplifier, then why come to the car audio forums in the first place?

[Eventix]

Sorry Kirk, it's easy to miss interprate a response through a short thread. I didn't word it in the best of ways. I appreciate and agree with your response . In fact, I'm looking around for something, non-mainstream, that is in 4ohm. I checked Adire as soon as I read your post. It's too bad because I would like to have sampled their full range speakers.

I still wonder if there is a difference between running high frequency speakers at lower then recommended impedance vs. low frequency speakers.

[KirK]

Oh, I'm sorry about that Eventix. I kind of misinterpreted that one sentence. To tell you the truth, I'm kind of a (Civil Engineer) Newtonian mechanics type of guy. Although I do know some about audio, just through experience.
I think Easy E can help you out here as far as impedance and wiring. Just need to be patient he'll come eventually. He's got a family so he can be quite busy at times..
And I can't blame you for wanting to stay away from the mainstream manufacturers too. Sometimes the best audio equipment you can find is through forums like this. Like Second Skin Spectrum for example.
But, I must say in all honesty, I don't know of an amplifier that's on the market yet that is stable down to 1 ohm that's intended for midbass and tweeter drivers. Just giving you a heads up. Maybe Easy E or CVStroker might know of one (or more) that I am not aware of. BTW they design their own audio equipment now apparently, so they can give advice based on education in audio technology and not experience alone..
Again, I am really sorry about that post. I misinterpreted what you posted. Good luck in your car audio ventures.

[Easy E]

My recommendation is getting a really nice set of components and sticking the tweeter in the dash and the mids in the doors. Where in the dash are the 3.5" speakers and how do the face? Do you have a picture? You can run into some weird phase issues if you have too much separation from your midrange to your tweeters. If the separation is too large go for a nice set of components and mount the tweeters on the door above the midrange.

[KirK]

Hey Eventix I just thought of something... Have you checked the Soundstream amplifiers yet? I know of companies that manufacture speakers with odd impedances that are compatable with the same manufacturer's amplifiers. For example, JL Audio. See if Soundstream has amplifiers that are dedicated for midrange and tweeter drivers and have an impedance stable at or below 1.5 ohms. Just an idea...
But if you don't feel like swapping the amp you have now for a Soundstream than I would say to adhere to Easy E's advice. Look around for a good set of componets with a more standard impedance so that you can power them with your existing amplifier. I think this will be a better alternative.

[Eventix]

My recommendation is getting a really nice set of components and sticking the tweeter in the dash and the mids in the doors. Where in the dash are the 3.5" speakers and how do the face? Do you have a picture? You can run into some weird phase issues if you have too much separation from your midrange to your tweeters. If the separation is too large go for a nice set of components and mount the tweeters on the door above the midrange.

Separation probably will be an issue. I'll take a photo but the 3.5 mounts face vertical and sit approximately 3ft-4ft (deep dash) from the driver/passengers head. There in the corner of the dash near the pillar and windscreen. The 6.5s are located low but forward on the doors.

I would seriously consider this route if it weren’t for the distance between the speakers. Still think it's too risky? Call me picky but I rather not have an aftermarket tweeter stuck to a panel.

[Eventix]

Hey Eventix I just thought of something... Have you checked the Soundstream amplifiers yet? I know of companies that manufacture speakers with odd impedances that are compatable with the same manufacturer's amplifiers. For example, JL Audio. See if Soundstream has amplifiers that are dedicated for midrange and tweeter drivers and have an impedance stable at or below 1.5 ohms. Just an idea...
But if you don't feel like swapping the amp you have now for a Soundstream than I would say to adhere to Easy E's advice. Look around for a good set of componets with a more standard impedance so that you can power them with your existing amplifier. I think this will be a better alternative.

I jsut checked the specs and there about the same as the Crossfire amp.

I keep going back to these speakers because I don't see anything else of much appeal, except maybe Diamond Audio D series. I think I need to refresh on circuits and put more consideration into the passive crossovers. Both, the 6.5's and 3.5's, have passive crossovers to be wired in series. If i were to wire the speakers in parallel and measure the impedance I would expect to see ~1.5 ohms, but as soon as I pass signal I thinking these crossovers are going to have a considerable impact on the impedance.

My three month old just caught a virus so I'll comeback to this project in a few days. What's going on with the forum? I haven’t noticed a slowdown in the car audio industry.

[KirK]

I jsut checked the specs and there about the same as the Crossfire amp.

I keep going back to these speakers because I don't see anything else of much appeal, except maybe Diamond Audio D series. I think I need to refresh on circuits and put more consideration into the passive crossovers. Both, the 6.5's and 3.5's, have passive crossovers to be wired in series. If i were to wire the speakers in parallel and measure the impedance I would expect to see ~1.5 ohms, but as soon as I pass signal I thinking these crossovers are going to have a considerable impact on the impedance.

My three month old just caught a virus so I'll comeback to this project in a few days. What's going on with the forum? I haven’t noticed a slowdown in the car audio industry.

You really want those Soundstream Tarantula's, don't you? Here's another idea that may be helpful. When people wire W7's, they normally treat them as a 4 ohm woofer. They'll wire it in parallel and it presents a 3 ohm load to the amplifier. So here's another possibility, find two small identical amplifiers dedicated to power midrange and tweeter drivers. If the amp is a two channel, just bridge the wiring for the positive and negatives accordingly. Power each Soundstream Tarantuala with its own individual amplifier, each being bridged at a 3 ohm impedance and wired in parallel. The manuals for the amplifier will show a diagram how to bridge a typical 4 ohm speaker (most likely). I think most amplifiers in the market today can support 3 ohm impedances.
Of course, this means forgoing the Crossfire, but eBay might help. However, I wouldn't suggest selling the amplifier if I were you. I would look around and see if there are other speakers that can be powered with the Crossfire (just me). But, I just thought I would give you more versatility in ideas. Good luck Eventix.

[KirK]

Hi Eventix. You had mentioned Diamond Audio D series in your previous post. I would recommend going the Diamond Audio route. It appears that Diamond Audio manufactures components that correspond to the dimensions you listed for your vehicle. Online Car Stereo sells Diamond Audio products at wholesale prices. Apparently, Online Car Stereo presently has a feature similar to Crutchfield’s “Outfit My Car”, enabling you to see if the speakers fit your vehicle.
Good thinking about Diamond Audio. I strongly suggest considering Diamond Audio over Soundstream Tarantula’s. This will spare you the trouble of either having to wire the speakers in series or swapping that Crossfire amplifier. So if you’re inclined for this “Diamond Audio” route than I suggest disregarding my last post. Save that Crossfire amplifier. I’ve heard plenty of good things about Diamond Audio in the past, and have listened to their subwoofers at a local car stereo shop. Solid performing products. Go for it.

[Eventix]

Did you notice Diamond Audio's opening page? DO NOT BUY DIAMOND AUDIO PRODUCTS ON THE INTERNET

Diamond Audio

It's unlike Onlinecarstereo.com to sell falsely badged speakers.

I'm also considering upgrading the Kicker compvr 8's to the Soundsplinter RL-i8's (RL-i8). The RL-i8's seem impresive. I purchased the MDF this weekend and I already have 4 Kicker 8's and a BMF-1000D from a previous install. I'll test the box with the kickers and if I like the sound I may replace them with the RL-i8's.

[KirK]

Did you notice Diamond Audio's opening page? DO NOT BUY DIAMOND AUDIO PRODUCTS ON THE INTERNET

Diamond Audio

It's unlike Onlinecarstereo.com to sell falsely badged speakers.

I'm also considering upgrading the Kicker compvr 8's to the Soundsplinter RL-i8's (RL-i8). The RL-i8's seem impresive. I purchased the MDF this weekend and I already have 4 Kicker 8's and a BMF-1000D from a previous install. I'll test the box with the kickers and if I like the sound I may replace them with the RL-i8's.

Yes. Unfortunately some companies don't honor Internet sales of their products. However, that didn't deter me from purchasing a 12W6v2-D4 on the Internet. And as it turned out, the eBay seller had left the ISBN number/sticker on the box. I guess it didn't matter to me at the time. Paid 330.00 for it as opposed to 540.00, which is what it retails for.
But, I guess for some people, the additional piece of mind does matter. I know that they DO sell Diamond Audio gear at certain audio shops. Just a matter of finding one...

[Easy E]

Going with 2 sets of speakers in the front can throw off the imaging and frequency response. Go with a good set of components. The speakers in the dash are probably too far away. I used to recommend the CDT Classics and luckily they still make them. They are a very good SQ speakers for the price.

http://www.woofersetc.com/p1090/CL61...t-Speakers.htm

Let me know if you have any other questions.

[Eventix]

Going with 2 sets of speakers in the front can throw off the imaging and frequency response. Go with a good set of components. The speakers in the dash are probably too far away. I used to recommend the CDT Classics and luckily they still make them. They are a very good SQ speakers for the price.

http://www.woofersetc.com/p1090/CL61...t-Speakers.htm

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Easy, KirK,

Thanks for the help thus far.

I'm going to try the CDTs but I still have some questions.

There are a few different ways I can do this. I'm not sure which is the best.

1. Bridge the amp to power the CDT components (100W RMS x 2). Leave rear doors stock and power with deck.

2. Same as 1 but replace the rear doors with the CDT 5.25s

3. Power the Components and rear CDT 5.25s with the amp (50W RMS x 4).

It seems to me that the components will be happier with the amp bridged and replacing the 5.25's is probably a waste. Let me know what you think.

Is $130 for a pair of components (2 x 6.5s) or one component?

[Easy E]

It is $130 for a pair. I would bridge the amp and give them 100 watts a piece. That amp are you going to be using on them? Power the rear speakers off the HU, and use them as rear fill. FYI you HU is not 50x4 RMS, most HUs are more like 10-20 watts RMS. Most of those ratings are peak power. Let me know if you have any other questions thanks.

[Eventix]

That amp are you going to be using on them?

Crossfire VR404:

Variable Highpass/ Lowpass Crossover from 50 to 500Hz for both Front and Rear channels, 2ch/4ch input switch, Input sensitivity selector switch, 5-way protection circuits, nickel plated connectors, MOSFET power supply, 2 ohm stable. 9.3"W x 2.1"H x 14"L

400 watt

4 x 50W @ 4 ohms (0.02% THD)
4 x 100W @ 2 ohms
2 x 200W @ 4 ohms bridged
Fuse: 2 x 20A

I was wrong on the bridged wattage. Should I still run bridged with the gain turned down?

If I stick with the stock rears the HU should be enough for fill. If I replace the rears with CDT 5.25s I would probably need to use an external amp. It's too bad the components don't come in a 2ohm version. If the did I could power the front and rears with the VF404.

[KirK]

In case if you're curious about RMS, this common abbreviation means "Root Mean Square". "Root Mean Square" arises typically in energy or energy-related applications in the physical and chemical sciences. Like a Watt, for instance, is a measure of an objects power and is measured in Joules per second. So like a kilowatt hour, for example, is energy, that is in (kJ/s) x (s) = kJ.
And if you like Calculus, an objects instantaneous power is
the limit of (the objects change in energy) / (the change in time) as the elapsed time interval approaches zero. As you can see, I'm into Mechanics.
And Root Mean Square also arises in an objects "sound intensity" (measured in decibels) as CVStroker pointed out in a post a while back. Regardless of application, it has universally the same meaning. It carries the connotation of being an objects inherent "nominal" energy rating (or energy-related characteristic).

[Eventix]

Kirk,

Sounds like your knee deep in it now. What are you working on, prereqs. for an ME or EE degree?

I'm pretty sure crossfire advertises RMS not peak output at 12.5vdc

[KirK]

Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering Program. I currently have Calculus I, II, Several Variable Calculus I, II, General Chemistry I, and General Physics I under my belt. I painstakingly beat my self to death with the studying and got A's in all of the aforementioned classes. Getting A's became an obsession for me. So I put up the car audio for a couple of years.
My interest in car audio dates back when I was seven teen. I learned a lot of valuable things, especially from CVStroker and Easy E, along the way.
I just recently transferred to the ME program. I was previously a Pure Mathematics major. I admit the Calculus was actually real fun and I breezed right through it. Took Linear Algebra.
...Then I took Set Theory. Rather abrupty, things weren't so fun anymore, and in the homework assignments I was often asked to prove theorems analytically. I wound up dropping the class and made the switch to Mechanical Engineering. Things are looking good thus far.

[Eventix]

I really don't want to purchase another amp. Nor do I want to send too much power to the CDT's. Therefore, by my estimate I can get ~109 db with an under rated 50W signal. 109 db, isn't that close to simulating the front row of a rock concert? Yes, I will turn it up that loud. It's my relief after a long days work. Anyway, maybe i'll get the CDT rears too and power all with the VR404. The hard part, wiring, will be done and If need be I can easily bridge or drop in a different amp. I'll post some photos as I go. Thanks for the support guys.

Kirk,
Any inclination for the Oil industry? How close are you to graduation? I too am a ME.

[KirK]

Well I currently have a Junior status, so yeah, a couple years before graduation. I previously was at a county college in NJ. Parents got a divorce in '07. Now, I moved out to CA with my father. I agree with the weather, but I don't agree with the UC Quarter system. I'm presently looking for institutions that have a semester structured curriculum.
I have applied to UC Berkeley as well as SDSU thus far (semester systems).
Anyway, long story short, trying to tranfer out of UCR and into one of the aforementioned institutions. I know I will enjoy pressing further into the physical sciences, provided I'm in a semester system. The semester system is what I'm used to.

[KirK]

I really don't want to purchase another amp. Nor do I want to send too much power to the CDT's. Therefore, by my estimate I can get ~109 db with an under rated 50W signal. 109 db, isn't that close to simulating the front row of a rock concert? Yes, I will turn it up that loud. It's my relief after a long days work. Anyway, maybe i'll get the CDT rears too and power all with the VR404. The hard part, wiring, will be done and If need be I can easily bridge or drop in a different amp. I'll post some photos as I go. Thanks for the support guys.

Kirk,
Any inclination for the Oil industry? How close are you to graduation? I too am a ME.

Sure, go for it Eventix. And when you get done wiring and installing the equipment just come back to the forums. I'm definitely sure Easy E will have recommendations as far as tuning the VR404 to optimize your listening experience. If you ever want to eliminate road noise, then I would recommend Second Skin Spectrum. Unlike Dynamat, it comes as a fluid allowing the consumer to either brush or spray the deadener on metal panels. I've used it before on my previous vehicle (1995 Buick Regal Custom). It was the single most efficient sound deadener I've ever used. Good luck on the install Eventix.